A rant against so-called heroes

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:30 am

Ok, I propose all posts on this thread be lists of questions until Elennsar deigns to actually answer at least a few of them. Because people have been posting lists of questions left and right (angelfromanotherpin just posted 19), and none of them have been answered. If you don't like the flowchart, you don't have to use it - but you do have to give some form of information.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:35 am

And I propose that any serious attempts at learning anything be done via reading the Arturius thread and posting there.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:28 pm

I sometimes wonder if he's asking for paranoia, except in a ye olde fantasy system - which fits the bill for exactly what he wants.

The computer = the dux

The players = expendable

The plots = irrelevant because everyone is lucky to survive past the mission briefing without dying 5 times.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:09 pm

No on all counts. An interesting concept, though.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:07 pm

Ice9 wrote:Ok, I propose all posts on this thread be lists of questions until Elennsar deigns to actually answer at least a few of them.

I propose to one-up your previous proposal. I think that each of us should ask one question per post, at least until we get to the magic "20 questions answered about Elennsar's wargame-RPG-thing?"

Bonus points for mild abrasiveness.

I will go first.

Will there be magic? YES or NO.

As in, Magic, motherfucker, will there be any?

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:12 pm

Invalid location for querry, please try again.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:55 pm

To continue in this vein then:

Since we cannot ask questions about setting or anything, I will stay 'on topic' to how often a 'hero'* should die.

The liklihood of a 'hero' dying has been detailed, by myself, several pages back. In order to assign baseline threat to a 'hero', a 'hero' with no advance knowledge of an encounter should have some sort of baseline knowledge about the death rate. This helps players to know when to avoid or seek out combat, and it helps DMs to follow the campaign vision of how deadly enemies are (enemies are fairly deadly in DnD, very deadly in Call, and not very deadly in Frank and K d20).

A party of 4 heroes encounters 4 typical encounters without having advance knowledge or tactical planning.

How many of these players have to make new characters due to death? Between ZERO and FOUR.

As in, how many little shits die in a combat day?

*hero is in quotes because anyone that dies every episode of a TV show is not heroic

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:58 pm

Sorry Elennsar, but STW is fucking hilarious.

Maybe you should be happy that people are asking questions about it at all than be pissy about where they are asking them.

Although I'm pretty sure I can answer that last question:

Your an idiot. How am I to know whether the PCs die 2.18281828 times a day or not. It depends. Maybe the encounters are all really hard or maybe they are all easy. I'm not sure either way.

You might as well ask what the victory conditions for the campaign are. After all you can't kill all the invaders since there are more in their own country, you can't make peace with them and you don't really build any defences so there isn't a way to permanently win or permanently make sure the peasants can defend themselves okay.

Now if you decided that for the campaign you needed to broker a treaty with the northern kingdom which requires saving the king's son then reaching the meeting place in 5 weeks time while there is a huge influx of invaders so you need to escort the Dux and help his army get there then that is a reasonable, achievable goal, and so you can have a victory condition.

In fact I'm going to raise a question about that in the thread.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:06 pm

If he's amusing you and others, great.

Maybe you should be happy that people are asking questions about it at all than be pissy about where they are asking them.

Being "pissy" has nothing to do with it. I have a thread on Arturius - that's where I'm keeping track of things having to do with it.

Having questions here, there, and everywhere else is untidy - and that means that I can't keep track of it as well.

That would be bad.

As for victory conditions: By all means, ask.

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:39 am

You know I got some of my friends to read E's BS, than I took a dump and asked them to examine it. It was unanimously agreed that my shit was more worthy of respect than E's was (though in all fairness I have been taking the all bran challenge so E had stiff competition).

The best thing about this thread is you can set s/h/it on ignore and still be entertaining. Get's rid of douche baggery while conserving the mockery.

I does beg the question as to why s/h/it continues to post here when it is obvious that nearly everyone thinks he's a fucking moron

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:26 am

The best thing about this thread is you can set s/h/it on ignore and still be entertaining. Get's rid of douche baggery while conserving the mockery.

Actually, it's the best time-saving measure on this forum. You can usually keep up with what Elennsar's saying by reading other people's quotes and outrage. Then you have the option of bypassing ignore on those rare occasions when you get totally lost.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:46 am

Cross-posted from my Bad Juju Threa,d an example for Elennsar of how non-demanding our demands are:

Boolean wrote:1.) What is your game about?

Negotiation, Logistics, Awe

2.) What do the characters do?

Make bargains, form political alliances, travel, and duel.

3.) What do the players (including the GM if there is one) do?

Not sure what this means?

4.) How does your setting (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?

Animism and Diplomacy are the central conceits. Therefore, every culture is going to be run on magic and dependent on foreign trade. The magic system will be tied in to political affiliations to make them relevant. Travel and communication will be difficult enough to make the PCs valuable and autonomous.

5.) How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?

Character creation should be a relatively fast process, with a focus on social and mental traits. Most of a characters cool abilities will be based on relationships, and mutable during play.

6.) What types of behaviors/styles of play does your game reward (and punish if necessary)?

We want to reward players for talking first, shooting later, even against "BBEG" types. We want to reward players for avoiding confrontation when possible. We want to reward players for paying attention to and forming attachments to various NPCs.

7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?

Every fight will use resources which are not easily replaced. Enemies will be unable to quickly kill the players, or players can easily defend themselves while talking.

8.) How are the responsibilities of narration and credibility divided in your game?

I don't understand what "credibility" means in this context. Players should
be able to participate in crafting their surroundings. When a player says, "I look for goblins/thunderbirds/nixies," he should find them.

9.) What does your game do to command the players' attention, engagement, and participation? (i.e. What does the game do to make them care?)

Vivid descriptions is a big one-- also, the players should be able to fill in the details of their surroundings. Reward players for good dialogue.

10.) What are the resolution mechanics of your game like?

Probably dice pools, maybe a bell curved die roll with bonuses. Most thigns should involve as few rolls as possible.

11.) How do the resolution mechanics reinforce what your game is about?

Well, we're going to have detailed mechanics for things we want the players to care about: social combat, mass combat, mage duels. Simple mechanics for things we don't want them to focus on, like squad-level combat.

12.) Do characters in your game advance? If so, how?

I had been going to go with a simple "get XP, spend on skills/spells system." XP gain would come from story awards and possibly as actual rewards from powerful in-game spirits.

13.) How does the character advancement (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?

Not sure; this could use more attention.

14.) What sort of product or effect do you want your game to produce in or for the players?

An intellectual challenge and a chance to practice performance skills.

15.) What areas of your game receive extra attention and color? Why?

Landscapes and Economy,to emphasize the animistic nature of the setting.

16.) Which part of your game are you most excited about or interested in? Why?

Not sure yet.

17.) Where does your game take the players that other games can’t, don’t, or won’t?

Ideally, it should give players a unique experience in terms of effect events on a large scale while still feeling like small people in a big world.

18.) What are your publishing goals for your game?

None really.

19.) Who is your target audience?

People who want to explore the consequences of the powerful abilities D&D wizards and Solar Exalts have in a setting where they aren't used quite so casually. People who want to roleplay interactions with NPCs more powerful than them. People who want a fantasy game less focused on combat.

If you who wrote these question would like to clarify any of them, please do so.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:04 am

Noted (and read in the original thread, FYI)).

Some of those are easy. Some of those are not so easy. Some are not really very useful. If the people who are actually interested in helping and not mocking or pestering consider that a good example of a filled out set, I'll write up what I can in the Arturius thread. Some areas will be "I don't know, that's why I'm looking for help.", but hey, that's a signal for "Hey. Let's hammer this out.".

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:24 am

Absentminded_Wizard wrote:
The best thing about this thread is you can set s/h/it on ignore and still be entertaining. Get's rid of douche baggery while conserving the mockery.
Actually, it's the best time-saving measure on this forum. You can usually keep up with what Elennsar's saying by reading other people's quotes and outrage. Then you have the option of bypassing ignore on those rare occasions when you get totally lost.

You do wonder how many of us s/h/it's ignored. Not that it truly matters; he ignores anything all of us say, ask, or advise anyways.

One has to admit s/h/it's tolerance for a near constant barrage of contempt is impressive.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:37 am

Elennsar wrote:As for victory conditions: By all means, ask.

I'm sorry dude, you make these things too tempting.

What does it take to win?

What are your freaking victory conditions?

Also, if that was you that answered the 19 game design questions, kudos, that is definitely a start and you can start to fill in those answers after you have them fleshed out.

PS - you know you could actually help by answering one of these.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:45 pm

STW, you rolled a 1 on your Snark check. Use Luck domain?

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:57 pm

If you want to ask, ask in the Arturius thread - reasons for saying to ask there already stated (organization).

If you want to be snarky, pesky, annoying, or whatever, keep it up.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:41 pm

Elennsar wrote:Some of those are easy. Some of those are not so easy. Some are not really very useful. If the people who are actually interested in helping and not mocking or pestering consider that a good example of a filled out set, I'll write up what I can in the Arturius thread. Some areas will be "I don't know, that's why I'm looking for help.", but hey, that's a signal for "Hey. Let's hammer this out.".

You should start a new thread that just deals with questions and their general answers. You're too all over the place with your old one.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:44 pm

Do the other creating-a-game threads have multiple threads for different aspects, not counting TNE?

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:19 pm

Elennsar wrote:Do the other creating-a-game threads have multiple threads for different aspects, not counting TNE?

Who cares?

You're horribly organized - more so than most people on these forums. You need a concise, easily referenced place for questions with their general answers, and another thread for hashing out the specifics. If you take your old thread, add in some questions and answers, and then start hashing, people are going to have a difficult time trying to locate the next question in line to deal with, and you're not going to have a ready reference to use as a basic plan. And then it's wasted effort.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:51 pm

Who cares?

You're horribly organized - more so than most people on these forums.

I care, because I'm sick of people thinking that they're entitled to be obnoxious assholes and claim that its helpful with little or nothing to support it but their own claim.

If you take your old thread, add in some questions and answers, and then start hashing, people are going to have a difficult time trying to locate the next question in line to deal with, and you're not going to have a ready reference to use as a basic plan. And then it's wasted effort.

If the people who are actually helping have a problem with it, I'm reasonably sure that they can say so. Since you don't appear to be one of them, your opinion is frankly irrelevant to that.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:00 pm

Yea, I have no idea what this thread is about anymore...

It used to be about when Elennsar said heros should die more. Which is a fine assertation, in many campaigns they do.

We are kind of... not on that topic anymore...

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:02 pm

All in favor of asking the fence builder to close the thread, say aye.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:07 pm

Elennsar wrote:All in favor of asking the fence builder to close the thread, say aye.

Aye fucking aye.

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:22 pm

Well, every now and then I tried to get it back on the topic of what a hero is, and how to roleplay heroic or risky behaviour. But... yeah, it needs closing.

Elennsar wrote:
Who cares?

You're horribly organized - more so than most people on these forums.
I care, because I'm sick of people thinking that they're entitled to be obnoxious assholes and claim that its helpful with little or nothing to support it but their own claim.

If you take your old thread, add in some questions and answers, and then start hashing, people are going to have a difficult time trying to locate the next question in line to deal with, and you're not going to have a ready reference to use as a basic plan. And then it's wasted effort.
If the people who are actually helping have a problem with it, I'm reasonably sure that they can say so. Since you don't appear to be one of them, your opinion is frankly irrelevant to that.

I'm one of them. And I agree: your thread is useless for finding information. I never bothered telling you because I didn't think you'd do anything.

If you really wanted to, you could, I dunno, EDIT THE FIRST POST, and put a big detailed desription of the system so far and the campaign so far (making it obvious which parts are the Arturius campaign and which are the system you are making to deal with the campaign).

But, I never thought you'd bother.